Gang-Reporting on Newsvine and the Silence of Admin.

Calvin, there has been a lot of gang reporting lately.

I've seen a few articles go down, and stay that way. One was up for three days and Tyler had been participating in the thread for two of them. The weekend came, and it vanished.

The author wrote, but still hasn't heard anything.

Yes, I reported many deletions of my comments, and NEWSVINE never responded. Why is that??? It should be pretty evident to NEWSVINE, that Zionists, whether Christian or Jewish, are bullying, using McCarthy tactics, as they are doing against intellectuals, Professors, based on a clear history of imperial nationalism, and corporate corruption. McCarthyism lives through Zionist thugs.

I totally agree, gang-reporting needs to be stopped and we appreciate all the help that we get in figuring out who's up to this nefarious behavior.

Wait. You can't tell? Don't you have some fancy-schmancy tools back there to see who's up to no good?

This has been going on for a long while and there have been some really good suggestions (mostly around that damn ! up top) that have nothing to do with figuring out the who. If you made the system better, perhaps it would not be prone to abuse.

True. There's been a lot of complaining, but there have also been many suggestions. Care to comment on that?

Might want to check this out. Calvin and NV are going to have a New Policy on Meta Articles and few other things here soon.

That's from last year.

Doh. I saw the March 3rd and didn't see the 2008. Now I feel dumb. Knew I shouldn't have those shots before I logged in. Good catch Dennis.

*turns red*

It happens.

shoot me an email and let's get to the bottom of this...

Hey, Mars, Calvin is offering to open direct private communications to help solve your problems and your response is more public ranting?

Does that demonstrate to him (and us) that you are more interested in problem solving or ranting?

Come on Eric---It's not just you---there have been many who have been deleted due to not conforming to the others on an article---SOME groups are doing this as a form of censorship.

You and I have agreed on somethings and disagreed on others BUT I always respect your views---unlike many others.

HUMMMM and we have another tracker problem!!

SR--Ding Dong!!!LOLOL

There have been many who have been deleted due to not conforming to the others on an article---SOME groups are doing this as a form of censorship.

One group in particular is doing it to an extent I've never seen before, and I've been here since the beginning.

Deleting comments that in no way violate the CoH, collapsing comments and articles, poisting sensationalist innaccurate headlines...

And no one is stopping it.

Before anyone says it - the emails go unanswered. No action, no response.

Heart of Darkness. It's a private group.

Just check the conversations.

Either way, we'll actually get to a resolution, rather than this eternal rant about something you don't describe precisely enough for us to either prove or disprove or otherwise do anything about.

I would have preferred to do it by email Calvin, but I'll take what I can get. I hope you or Tyler will be around when they retaliate over this...and believe me - they will.

By the way - Mars is talking about the same people. So are jdoyle, Claus Jacobsen and a host of others. We've reported, written emails, etc.

It took Mars' "grandstanding" for us to be heard.

And this is the first time I've mentioned this on Newsvine. All my correspondence has been by email, and has gone unanswered. Eternal rant?

Tyler does sleep and do things outside of work hours

What?!?! tyler sleeps? He has a personal life?!?! tyler's entire life doesn't revolve around Newsvine?!?! I'm crushed, I tell you, crushed! ;D

I want a discrete list of names, posted to this thread. I will do some research and if what you say is true, there will be suspensions. If what you're saying is not true, then those people will have the right to have their names cleared and will be able to defend themselves (rather than being alluded to and alleged against in perpetuity).

Good luck. I've asked Dennis for proof before... and he's offered to e-mail it to anyone who's curious but... well, I've never seen anything to substantiate these nebulous allegations of his. Let him put it all out into the light of day and let's all examine the evidence and get this over with once and for all.

This offer expires, so take me up on it. If you don't, it will be clear that you're simply interested in ranting and not in solving the "problem" you describe.

Makes sense.

I further suggest that if Dennis isn't willing to substantiate his allegations to you and tyler, that he be prohibited from raising this accusation again or face penalties, such as suspension. No viner should have the "right" to, without proof, finger-point and make serious accusations against other groups - tarnishing the reputation of those groups and the viners in them: there should be consequences for spreading such baseless animus on the vine.

As with many of your allegations, there may or may not be truth there, but you speak about them with such certainty and yet in such vague terms that there isn't anything to go on.

You know Calvin, that's not fair at all. Because I don't violate the CoH by naming names I'm being vague? I send emails. That's the procedure. What you've always said we should do.

And then nothing happens.

And if I bring it up again...because a complete lack of action or response left the situation unresolved, it's an "endless rant?"

Not fair at all.

Look, I know you guys are swamped, but where does that leave us users? Any chance of getting a moderating staff instead of just one guy? Tyler's a good guy, but he's only one guy. He can't be everywhere.

edit:

Hi there alkimija!

And so it begins...

Calvin, you wanted me to tell you in public. I did so reluctantly.

Thanks.

I'll make an honest man of you yet, Dennis. ;)

I just sent this email to Calvin, Tyler, and Mike D:

----

Hello gentleman,

The block voters seem to have struck again.

I wrote a meta article, and published it only to groups. On the third night, with nearly 300 comments (and only two deletions) the article disappeared. This was moments ago. The article violated no rules, the comments in the thread remained civil, with the exception of a few. There is no reason that article should have been collapsed.

I saved it 17 times. This has been happening to a lot of people lately, and I had a feeling it might happen to me. So, over the last 3 days, I saved it 16 times, so that I could identify just where the problems began. But the problems never began. The article just disappeared.

These arev the times I saved it. All times are EEST: May5 - 1424, 1942, 1953, 2033, 2105, 2141, 2219, 2305, 2348 May6 - 1004, 1102, 1859, 2030, 2131 May7 - 0001, 0207, 0222.

It had been clipped by various people to a lot of groups, including the following private groups:

(groups withheld from this post but included in the email)

Please check the private converstations in those groups and find out which one was used to coordinate the block voting, and please restore the article for me.

Thank you,

Dennis P. McCann

*offers handshake*

*enthusiastically returned.*

You do know you're putting me on the spot asking me to do this in public, right?

Of course, I have my suspicions, but because these people have so many private groups, it's impossible to say just who is in which group, and which group(s) are being used to coordinate this stuff.

The groups are listed in that email.

How about you take a look just at their membership lists, and see if you still need me to name them publicly? My guess is that you won't. Should be obvious.

And could you please restore my article? It's almost surreal. I received this email from a new user:

Subject: I found your words ...
Name: withheld
Email: withheld

Message: 
I've just joined and was found almost immediately by a friend of yours.  
I followed her to an article you wrote that I found inspiring, well informed and 
so obviously truthful.  It's sad how blindness can so easily be chosen.  
I hope it's not too forward to request a friendship.  I'm going back to work my
 way through as much of the follow up comments as I can before the 
Wife drags me off and away.

Take Care,
David

The next email I opened was from another viner asking me why that same article was deleted.

Yeesh.

Calvin,

This isn't my business but I'm bossy. You're going about this wrong in my opinion. Take a look at who collapsed this article Dennis is talking about. Restore the article!

Use the Moderation group with the collapsers and Dennis and any one else who has business in it.

Since it only takes 6 votes to collapse an article (or so I've been lead to believe), it's entirely possible that only some members of the cadre (for want of a better term I'll use the one I'm used to when I think of this group) it's unfair to ask Dennis, without the access to records that you have, to name which 6 members of the cadre were responsible for this specific take down.

I do think it would be highly suggestive if, during your investigation, you were to find that some or all of the people who took Dennis' article down have taken others articles down too.

Like I said, it's none of my business, but I'd really like to see you get to the bottom of this.

Ottoman's article got ganged on a bit ago and deleted (by the community) and he had no COH violations... and so did Bill Scoggins. His got restored... not sure about Ottoman's though. Its getting stupid... really. Past few days... I've seen so many go down, reposted, go down, reposted. It makes having a discussion on those seeds very frustrating when you got a roller coaster ride like that or the potential of it never getting restored.

This may have been already asked... but.. can't you Calvin have the ! system set up.. that... instead of letting the community collapse it... that a moderator has the final say first before it gets collapased? Or have a flag that goes up showing high ! on a seed. Just courious. I think it would be more fair that way... and a lot less frustration for some.

First I have got to say that I like participating in NV. I think it work pretty well in many ways.

There are a lot of articles that are pure garbage and the dialogue can get pretty vile but not unexpected based on the article. When those articles get deleted, I am pretty happy and I see why they get pulled. It sounds like Dennis' story is different. I think it should be enough for some contributor to ask NV to look into what is plausibly repeated malicious voting behavior. I think it is bad form to ask Dennis to provide publicly the names of people that he suspects are abusing the system when the specific voting on the article can be monitored. It really puts a contributor in a bad position to have to do that. If NV wants contributors to stop reporting suspicious behavior, then make them expose themselves to vigilantes. Good policy? Not.

Dennis, if you'd like, email Tyler and me the list of people you suspect as primarily being responsible for the bloc reporting you mention and I will see if the records support what you say. In addition, I'll see if membership of those groups overlaps with the abuse reporting.

Will do. I'll also forward that first email to you, calvin@newsvine.com is still active, right?

Sorry for the delay - time zones. I was up until 6 am.

Well, I now know why you aren't getting my emails.

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

     calvin@newsvine.com

Technical details of permanent failure: 
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected 
by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the 
other email provider for further information about the cause 
of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 
554 554 Denied (Mode: normal) (state 18).

I kept getting that error from Tyler's account when trying to report a series of spammers with a fetish for colourfully named porn domains.

Probably just a glitch.

Calvin I learned something yesterday you maight want to look into.

LAZARUS software. Its a bit over my head but I guess it allows you to post to many differenent account simultaneously.

I stumbled on to it when a Viner bragged about blocking "liberal gang" deleting his article. I was curious as to how he found out since we never get notified when the "conservative gang" deletes our articles.

I've been told that this is probably how a small number of individuals are shutting down articles.

So I guess it seems odd that a viner has found a way to block a system, that you don't want to disable because it serves a purpose.

Come on Blearc ----it isn't just the ""conservative gang""---AND I know who you are referring to---once again--- you and I have hit heads on many things BUT there are also many things WE have agreed on----

WE are NOT hitting heads on this as-I will agree that there are some in some of the groups I belong to that will do this--- AND I have voice MY disapproval to them. You know how I feel about an "Across the board deletion"---it reekes of censorship something I will never agree to or go along with. Unless it is obscene or-out right slander OR Coh violations this type of crap should not be done---BY any GANG.

You know I can be very outspoken--and sometimes I can get down right nasty--this happens only after being GANGED UP ON by the many Obama/Liberal gangs---people assume Im a Republican----and that always draws fire---Shocks them to learn Im an Independent!!

BTW what ever happened to your articles about the FED? WE had or at least I thought a real good INFO dropper there as MOST do not know anything about the FED.

Stay safe my friend

Dennis, which article of yours was deleted?

Please check the private converstations in those groups and find out which one was used to coordinate the block voting

I'm a member of Sharia Watch, one of the groups that you've characterised so negatively. A glance at the private conversation there shows no such thing going on: there's only a few messages, the last couple consisting of people saying "hi." Nobody tells me how to vote, and I strongly resent that you're implying that anyone does.

In your own article here you wrote: When you see a thread where Muslims are being bashed, clip the article to the Islam Anti-Defamation League, and to your column.

Is that how you are alleging block voting has been organised by others? Because people clip articles to their groups all the time that they both like and don't like. If you regard that simple act as organising block voting, then you're "guilty" of doing the exact same thing.

Calvin, thanks for approaching this issue carefully and reasonably. I've been trying to tell Dennis the exact same thing.

Nobody tells me how to vote, and I strongly resent that you're implying that anyone does.

I didn't say, state, imply, intimate, allude or infer anything about you.

I didn't say, state, imply, intimate, allude or infer anything about you.

You most certainly did, Dennis. In the other article (which I just realised was the one that was collapsed and restored), you named one of the three groups in which I am a member and characterised those groups and "many" deliberately unnamed members as spreading "hate and propaganda." That article effectively vilified every single member of those groups, and as a member of one of the groups, I am offended - and have every right to be.

Look at it from my point of view: how would you react if someone made similar charges about your IADL and its members?

Discuss the other article on the other article. Doing so here is threadjacking.

jscusmc69

Good to see you, I took a break to enjoy the weather and go nutty on gardening.

Btw Fed articles comming found some pretty interesting stuff, concerning Glass-steagal and Volckner isn't as bad as I thought. But on this issue, there are specific "gangs" on both sides.

Its an issue on the vine and its is frustrating as hell, no offense Calvin, that NV is keeping a feature so blatantly exploited.

The least they could do is require a staff check of an article once it gets a certain number of votes before it gets deleted. Comments fine but entire article because it upsets somebodies sensibilities? Grow a pair. But I guess this is cheaper than hiring another Tyler.

I want a discrete list of names, posted to this thread. I will do some research and if what you say is true, there will be suspensions. If what you're saying is not true, then those people will have the right to have their names cleared and will be able to defend themselves (rather than being alluded to and alleged against in perpetuity). Either way, we'll actually get to a resolution, rather than this eternal rant about something you don't describe precisely enough for us to either prove or disprove or otherwise do anything about. This offer expires, so take me up on it. If you don't, it will be clear that you're simply interested in ranting and not in solving the "problem" you describe.

Calvin, it seems as if Dennis has no intention of posting the list that you requested to substantiate his allegations.

It's time to call Dennis on this one.

Thanks, Calvin. Good start.

alkimija, the issue is being dealt with. Thank you for your suggestions.

Carry on.

Calvin has the list. He's already dealing with it.

Read comment 1.39... two names have been referred to Tyler so far.

It's time to call Dennis on this one.

It's time to apologize for that one.

Dennis, you've made serious accusations against entire groups of viners. It's you who should be apologising to not only every one of those people you've unjustly accused, but to all of Newsvine for bringing in the spectre of guilt by association.

It'll be interesting to see what Calvin's investigation uncovers.

If you read the comments, you'll see that Dennis is Emailing the list to Calvin, which is prudent. You'll know the names when and if Calvin makes them public after suspension.

Is it prudent? I'm not so sure. This argument has been going on for (what?) over a year now. The same basic suspicions have been aired.

I don't see why, if Dennis is certain that "this" group of people is at fault and has the okay from Calvin to simply post the names publicly, he shouldn't just do so?

I mean, by doing it privately, and hearing that two people were flagged, we don't know if there were more people than that named? I for one would like to know how correct -- or wrong -- Dennis was about his suspicions.

Mostly, I hate that so much of the vague accusing phase was public, but the resolution phase is sort of private.

Mostly, I hate that so much of the vague accusing phase was public, but the resolution phase is sort of private.

Agreed, it smacks of grandstanding on one hand but the private declaration of names smacks of a secret tribunal mentality, and no opportunity for one to face their accusers.

Dennis, you've made serious accusations against entire groups of viners.

No, I didn't... but we've been over this already, and on a thread where it was relevant.

I said this:

The people who denigrate Muslims are very vocal, and often stray off the topic, pedantically focusing on one word, or a phrase in a comment, and using it as an attack point.

No CoH violations there. Then, two paragraphs later, I said:

There is strength in numbers. The Eurabia group has only 7 members. ReligionofPeace, a nearly identical group, has 24. Sharia Watch (formerly Islam Watch, until Newsvine made them change it), also has 24. Many of them are the same people.

Now, you're assuming that those two paragraphs are talking about the same people, which they're not.

The first paragraph here is talking about a small group of people. Not group as in Newsvine group, just a handful of people who employ those tactics.

The second, which was two paragraphs later, is an attempt to encourage the members of my group to speak up. A pep talk, if you will. There are more of us than them, with them being our likely opposition on Islam threads.

So stop projecting your reading of my words on me, and stop calling for me to be tarred and feathered across multiple threads, all but one of which have nothing to do with my article at all.

You reported the article, though it didn't violate the CoH or UA. It was collapsed and restored. That's done.

If you have a further complaint, write to Tyler. This entire exchange is off topic, and I wouldn't blame Mars if he deleted it.

Is it prudent? I'm not so sure. This argument has been going on for (what?) over a year now. The same basic suspicions have been aired.

The article was deleted yesterday. You don't know irt, but you're talking about an entirely different issue - though it does involve some of the same people.

I don't see why, if Dennis is certain that "this" group of people is at fault and has the okay from Calvin to simply post the names publicly, he shouldn't just do so?

Retaliation, Brian, and the CoH. Calvin was asking me to violate the CoH, and set myself up for all sorts of hell. I'm glad he chose to do it through the normal means instead. Especially since I had already been reporting it through channels, but unknown to me, my emails weren't getting through.

I for one would like to know how correct -- or wrong -- Dennis was about his suspicions.

Just wait for it. Calvin said he referred it to Tyler. Give Tyler a chance to check it out.

Mostly, I hate that so much of the vague accusing phase was public, but the resolution phase is sort of private.

The 'vague accusing' phase was only public because Calvin asked me to do it publicly. When he decided that email would be better, it becausme private, as it should have been all along.

Oh, and it wasn't vague. I named names. I just didn't do it here.

Calvin was asking me to violate the CoH

One assumes he can do that. If the person who owns the site tells me I can do something, I'm going to do it. Retaliation be damned. Though, Tyler tends to be pretty lenient about letting people air their grievances publicly, so that issues can get resolved publicly. I'm not so sure that the whole "no one can speak of issues involving other Newsviners" is quite so set in stone as it used to be.

I stand by my earlier view: If what you say *is* accurate -- their violation would justify your violation.

At any rate, in comment 1.2 you said:

Calvin, there has been a lot of gang reporting lately.

I've seen a few articles go down, and stay that way. One was up for three days and Tyler had been participating in the thread for two of them. The weekend came, and it vanished.

The author wrote, but still hasn't heard anything.

I'm not sure how that comment was requested by Calvin. That's my point. If it's true that there is gang reporting going on -- maybe it is, maybe it isn't -- I guess I'd rather see someone say "I suspect this person, this person and this person is doing it".

That nips it in the bud.

This is why Newsvine is so stupid. We think we're entitled to constant baby-sitting here. Jesus H. Christ - if you have problems with people just come out and freaking say it. This is such an old, dead, tired, stupid conflict. Who bloody cares? You are making accusations about private groups that you have no way of knowing membership roles, etc. No way. So list the people not the groups. And be done with it. Both sides on this stupid debate act like children 90% of the time. I've sat it out for ages now, and whenever I come close to the stink of an Israel/Palestine debate on this site I go running. It seems to me that certain people just enjoy the conflict.

My suggestion?

You're all too damn old (I think) to need baby-sitters. Let the admins deal with some real problems for a while and quit @!$%#ing.

Oh, and Newsvine - couple words of advice - take out collapsible articles and comments altogether and you won't have to deal with this complaint every again! Like magic!

I would say leave the comment collapse feature. Anyone who wants to can uncollape it, read it and vote or comment on it. Do away with the article collapse feature.

I stand by my earlier view: If what you say *is* accurate -- their violation would justify your violation.

Yeah, I get all that Brian. I know he was giving me immunity there, but what you're not seeing is that I won't violate the CoH. I just don't do that.

I'm not sure how that comment was requested by Calvin. That's my point.

It wasn't. I was commenting on the post immediately before mine.

My previous article abided by every rule you have, yet it was still allowed to be collapsed, and Admin didn't send me any notification at all, and didn't respond to any Email. Why is that? You going to blame that on someone else too?

Calvin, there has been a lot of gang reporting lately.

After that, Calvin asked me for specifics, and to post them publicly. I gave him the name of a group. Then he said I could do it by email (which I had been trying to do all along) so I did.

So what's the problem?

ED I'm not sure who you addressing, but my article went down yesterday. It was the fourth article (that I know of) collapsed in the last week.

This is such an old, dead, tired, stupid conflict.

Huh? Are you talking about the same thing everyone else is?

Calvin - I will say this one thing here (under comment 1) - Since you were asking for a publicly visible list; do you think it would be possible to (1) require an admin intervention to delete an article and (2) have that admin leave in place of the article a reason for the deletion (and delete the comments as well) (in fact requiring some specific comment about why you are voting to delete an article might be a prudent thing - then you could set up a search engine with those parameters to search for questionable content - be proactive)

This would also be good for deleted comments

Both of these would provide specific feedback to the community about what is being deleted and why. - it would have people feeling better about newsvine, provide transparency.

This would also be good for deleted comments

Both of these would provide specific feedback to the community about what is being deleted and why. - it would have people feeling better about newsvine, provide transparency.

I agree.

Deleting comments merely because the author disagrees with the point of view expressed therein is an obvious violation of the COH. Allowing free and open discussions of issues, no matter how controversial, is a must for NV to function properly.

Comments that do not violate the COH must be allowed to remain visable-- so that all may read them and form their own opinions. IMO, those who ignore warnings and repeatedly delete comments should be suspended. (I wonder-- how do others here feel about this?).

Several people here asked for specific examples of inappropriate deletions, rather than vague innuendos. Well, recently I was in a heated discussion. I had many comments deleted-- merely because the seeder disagreed with my POV. And this happened not once or twice-- but repeated! In fact-- more than 10 of my comments were deleted!

What if Egypt, Jordan, and Syria had won the Six Day War? Would USA label Jews in Gaza Terrorists?

Well, recently I was in a heated discussion. I had many comments deleted-- merely because the seeder disagreed with my POV. And this happened not once or twice-- but repeated!

Yeah, I saw that. Didn't get to see what was deleted but I know you well enough to know that you probably didn't cross the line and certainly I didn't think you'd do it all those times.

For the record space guy and I agree but once every hundred comments if even that often. 1.57 is one of these time. Since the article didn't target me I ignored it but if I was targeted I'd probably do the same as space guy.

Well said, Space Guy.

Dennis:

I gotta admit, this part baffles me:

It had been clipped by various people to a lot of groups, including the following private groups:

(groups withheld from this post but included in the email)

Why bother keeping that list "private" when it's publicly available at the bottom of your article?

Attention Whores, Civility, Respect, and Honor, Combating Racism & Xenophobia, Conflict Resolution Group, EthicsVine, Ethnoscapes, Hate Watch, Heart of Darkness, Illuminati Vine, in moderation, Islam Anti-Defamation League, Islamic Scholars, Jewish anti-Defamation League, La Plume de ma Tante, Men in Black, MetaVine, Newsvine Community, Newsviners' Picks, NV Bilderberg Group Zionists, Open Mic

Attention Whores, Civility, Respect, and Honor, Combating Racism & Xenophobia, Conflict Resolution Group, EthicsVine, Ethnoscapes, Hate Watch, Heart of Darkness, Illuminati Vine, in moderation, Islam Anti-Defamation League, Islamic Scholars, Jewish anti-Defamation League, La Plume de ma Tante, Men in Black, MetaVine, Newsvine Community, Newsviners' Picks, NV Bilderberg Group Zionists, Open Mic

That's funny. I didn't know there was groups dedicated to the way feel about these articles that serve no purpose but rage.

I woulldn't join a group like these but it's clear that there is a wide feeling that rage articles have no place.

How about this ... a non delete rage downvote ... a rage downvote lowers an articles popularity .. however it will increase it's ranking on a "rant and rave" list. I know some people enjoy "heated debates" ... give everyone a list to find those.

Basically make a rage room.

Well said, Space Guy.

Really, Tom? Even the "you're an @!$%#" part?

I didn't even bother calling SG on it, because I expect it.

But, Tom proclaims to be above that sort of thing, and I find it shocking to see him so brazenly supporting an obvious violation.

Calvin

Quite frankly, Newsvine is simply out of control at the current time. I mean jesushchrist, I emailed Tyler through the suggested link mid-afternoon today EDT about these two flagrant CoH violations still appear on the frontpage. This is simply unacceptable and the decent (in the sense of offering something other than puerile juvenilia) contributors to Newsvine of some standing simply are not going to tolerate this any longer and will offer some publicity for the site in the larger world that might not be appreciated by management. I mean this as no disrespect to either you or Tyler but this has to stop and if it means hiring three, four or more moderators then I suggest Jeff Immelt or Bill Gates can pay for it out of their pocket change.

Calvin you want evidence?

Well they just deleted the article of mine that Bill Harrison linked to...

Hows that hit you? Is it acceptable they do it right here, and shove your face in it while they laugh...

http://ftmackinc.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/07/2788166-joe-the-plumber-quits-republican-party-orthere-goes-one-furless-rat-off-the-uss-republitanic

And you ignore the article just deleted, right there, comment 1.68, like it never happened?

What the heck is that???

Calvin they just in your face did it again and you just let it slide...I am completely confused...

we just thought of a creative new way to prevent inappropriate abuse reporting, so whatever the outcome of this is - we will all be better off.

If nothing else comes of this, that sounds like good news.

Evidence? names?

well here is two for you...look at these threads and the censoring, reported multiple times...

Ignored every time....

I got more, theres names for you to check into...hello about my article being censored?

sheesh...

Evidence? names?

http://johnrussell.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/05/2779021-miss-california-brings-out-the-worst-in-the-political-left-the-question-is-why

http://scogginfamily.newsvine.com/_news/2009/04/11/2667727-conservative-sheds-tears-for-our-nation

well here is two for you...look at these threads and the censoring, reported multiple times...

Ignored every time....

I got more, theres names for you to check into...hello about my article being censored?

sheesh...

I don't think Calvin is looking for names beyond those that alleged by Dennis.

Calvin,

Public, then private, now public again? And you say you didn't receive the email?

Redwolf forwarded it to you. I asked her to because I know her emails get through.

Look, the bottom line here is you can very easily check to see who brought my article down, and check those names against the memberships of the groups I named in the email.

So why not just do it?

I think the key is this:

I think it will be a fair and hopefully a terminal end to this drama to have those who are actually guilty of what they're being called out for to bear the punishment(s) and for those who did not in fact carry out the alleged activities to have their names cleared, publicly.

That seems fair to me. In fact, what Calvin said in its entirety makes sense. The only real way to end all this is with transparency. What's the trouble naming names when asked to? I don't get it. I mean, doesn't it get to the point where you just have to work with what you've got? You complain, the admin says here's what you've got to do. Do it or stop complaining. What could be more simple?

I think, as E.D.Kain points out, this basic issue (or one that some people may think is related, even if it is not) has been going on long enough, amongst a few fairly visible people, in public, that several people may think they know who is who or which person is suspected of doing this or that, and *that* is why I think, at this point, it will be interesting to see what the truth of the entire matter is, and ensure that "suspicions" are either confirmed or dashed.

I did forward Dennis' email and it didn't bounce back to my account so either Calvin got it, it's languishing in a spam box somewhere of the server dev/nulled it.

I don't buy the argument that Dennis will be retaliated against

I disagree with this. Admittedly it's off Newsvine, so Calvin can't see what's going on, but I know of at least four people who have been hounded off site by what is very likely the same group of possible bloc-voters that Dennis, Doyle and others have run afoul of. The abuse was so bad that for some of these people, their jobs were under threat. I'd say that qualifies as retaliation and reason to follow existing protocol that dictates not to publicly name names.

If two people have had their reporting privileges revoked by admin, it seems odd that Calvin is asking Dennis to name the offenders when he already knows who they are.

I have my suspicions based on some of the less than civil comments left of his article, but that doesn't mean the people I suspect may be behind the possible bloc-voting were even using their main accounts to report rather than a sockpuppet that, if inactive content-wise on the site, would only flag up to admin. And that doesn't take into account the meatpuppets that may not contribute to the threads, and hence be unknown to the community, but routinely report because a friend suggested it.

While this all sounds a little far-fetched and venturing into tinfoil hat territory, it's exactly what a group of since culled religious extremists were doing on Newsvine last year. I found evidence of the group actively attacking members of their opposing number's flock both off site and on site. I'd be surprised if they haven't left smears all over NowPublic accusing Newsvine of pro-Catholic bias. The fallout from that little nightmare was limited due to the loons being mostly based outside the US, even if they were situated globally, and seeming to be content to keep their behaviour confined to the religion's country of origin. It may have made mainstream media there, especially considering the ringleader was the PR hack for the cult, but the story would have little likelihood of being picked up in the US or elsewhere in the world.

There's more than one group of bloc-voters on Newsvine. I've seen several at work and have caught one particularly dim Viner publicly calling for assistance to bloc-vote and gang-attack other Viners with an opposing political stance.

I would still like to see the names of the people Dennis thinks are behind a gang-reporting conspiracy that has targeted him, and I'd like to do an audit of a number of his inappropriately censored articles to put to rest this controversy.

Calvin, I don't have any other collapsed articles.

That's what I've been trying to tell you - this all just started this week. Jdoyle, then Mars, then me. Otto Show somewhere in there.

This is a new issue. Until now, it's just been comments that were wrongly deleted/collapsed.

But hey, any time you want to revisit the old issue, just let me know;-) I'm still waiting for a resolution to that.

I don't think that this investigation is over; this was only a single instance. I would still like to see the names of the people Dennis thinks are behind a gang-reporting conspiracy that has targeted him, and I'd like to do an audit of a number of his inappropriately censored articles to put to rest this controversy.

Calvin

There is a lot of hysteria here on the vine about this subject. Most of these deletions come from people who randomly stop by or see an incredibly offensive article in the sidebar. It may be free speech but I bet a lot that Mars does not say things like this to people around him when he is home in Cullman Alabama.

The last time that this happened to me was from your former CoH militia before the election! Too bad there was no interest in the subject then.

Calvin:

Just so we have this straight. The one person who we know reported the article, alkijima (we know because she defended having done so publicly and transparently on the thread) was not on Dennis's list, but the four people who were on Dennis's list did not report the article.

Which means nothing. Just because someone didn't click a button doesn't mean they weren't involved in other ways.

That's why I asked that the group conversations be examined.

Just because someone didn't click a button doesn't mean they weren't involved in other ways.

See, this is what worries me. Once they're found (if they're found) to have not conspired via the group talk, what's to stop someone from saying that they're not conspiring via private email, etc.?

That's what I've been trying to tell you - this all just started this week. Jdoyle, then Mars, then me. Otto Show somewhere in there.

I mean, isn't the simplest solution probably the correct solution, especially in this case where 4 articles *all on different topics and spanning ideology* happened to be written about incredibly controversial topics, and at least two of them included baiting headlines and swastika imagery laid against symbols that some people will object to seeing superimposed alongside a swastika and, as a result, several people looked at the article, and -- as individuals -- had a knee-jerk response to click the " ! " option?

I mean, as I've said before, a couple of the people (of the four you're referring to, Dennis) know they push the limits of what will piss people off, right? I still think my article is more likely to be correct: They succeeded. People got pissed, and it bit them in the ass -- for about two hours, at which point their articles came back.

I also still say that one *part* of a solution could be having to read a pop-up warning before actually submitting a report, specific to each report option that 1) gives a short and to the point explanation of what actually qualifies as reportable under that option and 2) a blunt warning about what will happen if you falsely report content, up to being banned.

I've started putting all the information together. You'll have it sometime tomorrow. Well, my tomorrow, probably late tonight for you.

I just ask that you keep in mind that there's a difference between knowing something and being able to prove it. Since I don't have access to Newsvine's logs, and can't look into private groups, there are still a lot of questions unanswered.

Think of it this way.... I'm the citizen filing a charge. You're the cop.

I want to address something Brian said in regards to knee jerk reactions and how people got pissed so it us authors in the ass - correct me if I'm wrong but the CoH and the enforcement of censorship tools shouldn't be about what upsets someone. If that's the standard most Viners could find at least one or two things on a daily basis that they feel should get reported and taken down.

I had a reaction to Mars's article and pictures. But I didn't report it. I didn't even grace it with my presence (mostly because I was busy putting mine together and then dealing with the discussions). I did editorialize it in an indirect way in my own article. No matter how offensive or stupid I may think that article was, it's Mar's responsibility to defend and argue his own points of view and if his point of view includes the notion that Republicans are Nazi holdovers or wannabes or whatever, that's his opinion - I can challenge him on it but it's not my place to censor it or hide it or punish him for it. I expect the same for mine.

And I would apply the rule of consistency here as to why it's wrong to do so - I will apply my standard to just about anything I read even if it I think it is grotesque and unfair. I suspect that most people who report my article and want to see it go would not give the same consideration for Mars's article and vice-versa. Political opinions and worldviews should not dictate what is and isn't appropriate opinion. Everyone here has the ability to not support an article, to ignore it, to respond to it or to write their own take or response.

It shouldn't be that hard to understand or to apply. Apparently it's the swastika that is the common element in these two articles but it's actually the editorial statement that the swastika is used in that dictates why someone would react that way to one and not the other. What does that have to do with the CoH (which I thought was the standards that should be used)?

I can't speak for Mars, but I spent a few hours reading articles, Googling items, marking passages and then an hour or so writing it and some time proof reading it. Then a few small-minded people can take 10 seconds to flag the article and have it removed. The fact that it is reinstated two hours later doesn't change the fact that the article was robbed of it's prime exposure. It doesn't get reinstated to the front page and people who were interested in it and see that it was gone may not come back once it's been reinstated.

I think it should cost money out of earnings to flag an article or there should be some kind of restitution system if an article is flagged, removed and then reinstated. Some kind of measure to make people think twice and take seriously their intent to stifle views (and images) that they don't like, particularly for people like Mars and Dennis and myself who apparently refuse to engage in the same petty tactics.

And - I don't think it's a conspiracy, just stupidity that gets most articles removed.

Brian is right - this is individuals acting on an unfortunate mentality.

otto, I'm sorry but you are wrong...its organized and its effective at driving a point of view to the front in a forum like this...

Its happened to me before several times, they just did it again to me today...so I am not making stuff up...I know...I have seen it.

I know its the right alone as well...you know why? I think i have been asked to every effort to fight back and they all fall apart...you can't get libs to fight worth a damn...lol

and all that is true I swear.

ftmac---I think YOU and Otto are right it will vary from article to article----Many times you and I don't agree but sometimes we do----I have seen your posts--ftmac deleted for what ever reason---AND I wonder why as there are several authors who WILL not tell you why. Give me some time and I will find the article---

I do remember that YOU were making VERY good on topic posts and thats what got me.

Hey Jfx hows the stock doing?

It doesn't have to be "organized" (like some kind of "communist plot" a la R. Nixon), it can be social; the "organization" could be twittered, etc.

It seems to me that it should be a trivial programming task to take all those who are voting all articles and comments into a database (with the article / comment identification) and do a COUNT by individual - follow those who do a lot of using the "!" buttons and look for patterns (it would also be a warning as to behavior if someone is racking up very large numbers of such votes - that this person may have an issue with competing viewpoints; or that people are not moderating as they should.)

In either event, this is called "Management by exception" ie you focus your attention where it is needed. Either these people are more responsible and might make good moderators or they have issues and should be watched.

Oh, by the way, you can watch for correlations, patterns where the same people show up at the same articles and vote them down - which is strong evidence of what Dennis feels is happening. If Dennis is wrong, then it is a much larger group that needs to learn how to use newsvine properly

Which means nothing. Just because someone didn't click a button doesn't mean they weren't involved in other ways.

That's why I asked that the group conversations be examined.

"Examined"???

How about lie detector tests?

(Not for everyone on Newsvine of course-- that would impractical, costly, and time-consuming. Just, maybe, for the most prominent suspects-- maybe only the top 30 or 40 or so on Dennis' lists...???)

And torture, of course, would be completely out of the question!

Which means nothing. Just because someone didn't click a button doesn't mean they weren't involved in other ways.

That's why I asked that the group conversations be examined.

"Examined"???

How about lie detector tests?

(Not for everyone on Newsvine of course-- that would impractical, costly, and time-consuming. Just, maybe, for the most prominent suspects-- maybe only the top 30 or 40 or so on Dennis' lists...???)

And torture, of course, would be completely out of the question!

Seriously though-- why not eliminate the collapse feature entirely? IMO that would eliminate the problem. Admins should be the only ones to delete articles.

If users do it (especially a small group) then the situation is only going to get worse-- rapidly --because other people, particularly "newbies"-- will see how easy it is. And a small percentage of them will figure "Why not collapse anything at all -- just because I disagree with the opinion expressed"?

The way it is now-- 6 people (is it 6 to collapse?) can decide whether or not any seed or article violates the COH. Think about it-- Any 6-- even newcomers straight off the MSNBC threads-- are allowed to decide what constitutes a COH violation. Or-- even delete things 'cause they feel in the mood... . It doesn't matter if some 30 or so Viners-- or 100) think the article is great-- or at the very least not a COH violation. Any 6...on a site thats this big, and growing-- the odds are that the situation will get worse rather than better.

its organized and its effective at driving a point of view to the front in a forum like this...

Its happened to me before several times, they just did it again to me today...so I am not making stuff up...I know...I have seen it.

I know its the right alone as well...you know why? I think i have been asked to every effort to fight back and they all fall apart...you can't get libs to fight worth a damn...lol

and all that is true I swear.

FYI-- I've heard conservatives make exactly the same term (just flip the labels).

Calvin:

Just so we have this straight. The one person who we know reported the article, alkijima (we know because she defended having done so publicly and transparently on the thread) was not on Dennis's list, but the four people who were on Dennis's list did not report the article.

Wow!

I think that's very significant. Think about it a minute.

I would have guessed Dennis would have hit it right with 4 out of 4--given the amount of time and effort he puts into this sort of thing. (Also some of the claims that its consistently the same small group...)

Or at least 3 of 4. But he's batting exactly 0 here..

Think about that a minute-- what are the implications of that!?!!??

krish:

Think about that a minute--

I did. I always do before posting a comment to a bad-meta thread.

:^{)>

I honestly thought he'd get at at least one and probably two correct of the names he sent simply because the universe of possible suspects is really quite obvious to anyone who follows the Middle East threads. It's not like we're secret from each other.

I knew I hadn't and I was pretty sure you haddn't but I couldn't rule out that you had (Who knows? You get mad and click the mouse in a fit of pique) but I infer now that you hadn't because there's no way you weren't one of the four names.

I can't speak for Mars, but I spent a few hours reading articles, Googling items, marking passages and then an hour or so writing it and some time proof reading it. Then a few small-minded people can take 10 seconds to flag the article and have it removed.

If you're worried about it, maybe you shouldn't have chosen to put that image on your article on a whim when, as you've admitted, it wasn't even really supported by any of the content of your article.

I'm not saying it's right to report the content, and obviously it's not or it wouldn't have been restored -- I'm saying that you know it's going to happen and my guess is that you like to play the "I just don't get why people report things they disagree with, but I feel good about myself because my content always gets restored" game, so you continue to play the game.

You're not the only person on Newsvine who writes about conservative issues -- and you're certainly not the only person who does so with real thought -- but you're one of the rare few people who (as you'll readily admit) sees a lot of articles taken down.

So, no. I don't particularly care that you have to go through the hassle of contacting Tyler whenever it happens, because you know why it happens and how easily it could be avoided. With that said, I'm not sure who enjoys that it happens to your content more: You, or me.

nonsense, this is a creative writers forum that is not owned by any ideology or political viewpoint.

It is for creative ideas, writers, thinkers and the like.

Your whole bent, your tone, your way of thought is hostile to any of that.

You deny expression so that you can force the reality you are willing to see or accept into a preformed crock of @!$%#.

Sorry, but there it is...

krish:

Think about that a minute--

I did. I always do before posting a comment to a bad-meta thread.

:^{)>

jfxgillis:

Sorry- I was unclear in my previous comment.

When I said:

Think about that a minute--

I hadn't meant to address that comment specifically to you. It was intended to be addressed to...um..a generic class of NV "thinkers' as it were. (Or, perhaps, as so often the the case in many of these absurd meta discussions-- non-thinkers. Not that I claim to be better than anyone else in this regard. Au contraire, mes petits choux!).

I honestly thought he'd get at at least one and probably two correct of the names he sent simply because the universe of possible suspects is really quite obvious to anyone who follows the Middle East threads.

Yeah, that's what I thought. (Actually, let's face it-- Dennis is no fool. I expected him to get at least 3 out 4 right-- possibly more).

But surely at least 2...or even 3. But none-- a big flat zero? WTF???

It's not like we're secret from each other.

True enough. But, of course there are a few individuals here (no names mentioned of course) who do think there numerous secrets afloat-- cabals...secret societies...even virtual terrorists defiling the hallowed halls of Newsvine! A nook in every corner. To them-- everything's a plot. A massive conspiracy.Nothing is as it appears.

(If it would be useful in tracking down the alleged culprits, I can email you my list of suspected conspirators-- although I doubt that it would be any more accurate than Dennis' was. Mere supposition-- with little, if any, hard evidence to back it up).

IMO, there's a distinct possibility that some of these collapses-- if indeed it takes only 6 people-- may well have been the result of 6 random individuals. One person got pissed off-- or dissagreed with something-- or was even a troll looking to create mischief. Time passes...then another person, totally unconnected to the first person-- votes to collapse it. Eventually, it gets 6-- not a lot considering the number of people here.

To assume that every collapse is the work of some vast conspiracy may well be inaccurate-- if not slightly paranoid.

I knew I hadn't and I was pretty sure you haddn't but I couldn't rule out that you had (Who knows? You get mad and click the mouse in a fit of pique) but I infer now that you hadn't because there's no way you weren't one of the four names.

Just because I wasn't on Dennis' list? That hardly proves my innocence. (Playing Devil's advocate here).

That list was absurd anyway-- he didn't guess even 1 out of 4!

Zero-- not a one. Nada.

Which says a lot about the accuracy of some of his accusations-- IMHO.

Which says a lot about the accuracy of some of his accusations-- IMHO.

- word "paranoia" comes to mind. Will we hear any apologies from Dennis for his empty accusations of the entire group of people? Will he publicly admit that his entire premise of some "conspiracy" against him was wrong from the very beginning?

ftmackinc - I don't doubt that it happens (I recall the CoH Militants Group which granted was more public about it), I just don't think it's the major problem here and it's not as if Newsvine has it's shortage of paranoid conspiracy theorists so Calvin is right to ask for examples and names before proceeding with any changes or general accusations.

Groups or no groups, people will e-mail each other or go through some other function if their goal is to swarm-censor an article. Personally I'm all for someone contacting someone else and saying I need help responding to this article or comment - that's different than asking for help to shut it down.

The 'community' has proven time and time again that it cannot be trusted, regardless if it's concerted efforts or narrow-minded individuals.

Brian - you can't have it both ways. I either have the right to editoralize my article the way I see fit without fear of community censorship or I don't (within reason and I think mine as well as the one by Mars was well within reason). People should be expected to tolerate things that they don't like or that offends them or that makes them uncomfortable - or they shouldn't have that exectation here.

It shouldn't be up to intolerant, drooling people who lack convictions to determine what views are going to be expressed on Newsvine. Period. You may not agree with that but I happen to think it's the single biggest problem on Newsvine (at least regarding Politics) and to writers, is in itself offensive.

These people obviously don't want to be on Newsvine - they just don't realize it.

The problem can not change...

Proof is asked for...proof?

we can't have the proof, we only have access to the results and our intuition. We have the ability to share our suspicions with others we think reasonable and come to a consensus the yes....this almost has to be true...

but....we can't have proof, only those in control of the sit itself and the telemetry can have "proof"

so all thats kind of a waste...

imho

That said...it happened to me, multiple times now... and thats the truth...

I either have the right to editoralize my article the way I see fit without fear of community censorship or I don't (within reason and I think mine as well as the one by Mars was well within reason).

You do have that right. And, as you've always tended to do, you have the right to slyly flip people who disagree with you the bird, to say "haha, let's see what they think of *this* as I make my point" and in return, you run the risk that they're going to flip it right back at you.

It's all a game. Your articles (these specifically, and others you've written) obviously weren't "well within reason" because you aren't very good at writing content that doesn't get deleted by people -- or are very good at writing content which does get deleted by people -- whereas other people who write about the same subjects do just fine, yet still manage to get a strongly partisan point across, and just as, or often more, intelligently.

But, no. We don't have the right to not fear deletion. We can't do "whatever" we want. We're all subject to being interpreted against the Code of Honor and as I've said elsewhere, you're very very good at writing content that the staff will agree isn't a technical violation but which (apparently) large numbers of individuals feel crosses a line. And, maybe you'd have a point if you hadn't already agreed that it's not simply a group of the "I hate The OttO Show" jerkwads, it's just a collective of people who all come to the same conclusion based on whatever it is that you're doing.

It shouldn't be up to intolerant, drooling people who lack convictions to determine what views are going to be expressed on Newsvine. Period.

This is just your ego shining through, or your belief that your views are being victimized. Bull@!$%#. As I said in my article, if you say that, you're being disingenuous. You've yet to explain why any number of people can have those same views and yet not have their content removed. It's not the views at all. It's the way you present the views. And, as I've said, you're free to do so, but even a mouse stops touching the buzzer after getting shocked two or three times.

Your whole bent, your tone, your way of thought is hostile to any of that.

Whatever you say, bub.

it's not as if Newsvine has it's shortage of paranoid conspiracy theorists

Agreed. In fact, IMO, we have a surplus of conspiracy theorists! (I wonder of some other sites have a shortage-- we perhaps we could send some of ours over to help out? :)

We also have a surplus of people who don't know when to keep their mouths shut and get kicks out of inflaming an already touchy situation via silly comments.

WOW...look at all the "green" all of a sudden.

So, I won't disclose specifics (names) mentioned in Dennis' email, but I will say that he named 4 people and gave me a link to an article that was censored (it was the same one provided to me earlier, that I found 2 people to have falsely been reporting abuse on). For the record, none of those four people reported abuse on that article. Still, I don't think that this investigation is over; this was only a single instance. I would still like to see the names of the people Dennis thinks are behind a gang-reporting conspiracy that has targeted him, and I'd like to do an audit of a number of his inappropriately censored articles to put to rest this controversy.

Not a single one of the accused viners was actually "guilty." Wow.

Will we hear any apologies from Dennis for his empty accusations of the entire group of people? Will he publicly admit that his entire premise of some "conspiracy" against him was wrong from the very beginning?

Hear, Hear.

Most people would be at the very least embarrassed if they made public accusations against groups of other viners which turned out to be untrue. Most people would then admit that they were wrong and apologise... not only for having unjustly accused others, but for having caused such a commotion for no good reason in the first place.

So, what say you, Dennis? Will you concede that, like the rest of us, you suffer from all-too-human fallibility? Will you hold out an olive branch so that we viners can have a chance for peaceful coexistence?

You speak as if this matter is closed.

You know not of which you speak.

You know not of which you speak.

Uh, Dennis, that's kind of rich, coming from you - don't you think? Not a single person that you've accused so far has apparently done what you've been accusing them of doing. Doesn't that tell you something?

Here's a handy tip: the next time you believe something is happening here at Newsvine that shouldn't be happening - hash it out privately with the staff first, instead of engaging in public mass smear-campaigns. How not to win friends and influence people is demonstrated very well in your accusatory article and posts.

You want to continue to cultivate unfounded, unsubstantiated animosity and paranoia on the vine? I guess if the staff allows you to (they shouldn't, imho), then you can continue to poison the well, so to speak. But don't you dare complain that it's other people who are making Newsvine an unpleasant place. You've gone out of your way to spread ill-wil, and inflict a lot of damage to Newsvine's community spirit.

It would be a wonderful gesture if you would apologise to those people whom you have unfairly accused so far. It would go a long way to repairing some of the bridges you have gone to so much effort to destroy.

Uh, Dennis, that's kind of rich, coming from you - don't you think? Not a single person that you've accused so far has apparently done what you've been accusing them of doing. Doesn't that tell you something?

It tells me you have no idea what's going on. I sent the letter to Calvin on Saturday. You don't know what's in that letter, and he probably hasn't read it yet. He told me he wouldn't get to it before Monday.

He hasn't even begun his investigation yet.

Calvin has already been investigating this matter. You seem to be overlooking Calvin's post in #1.79:

I will say that he named 4 people and gave me a link to an article that was censored (it was the same one provided to me earlier, that I found 2 people to have falsely been reporting abuse on). For the record, none of those four people reported abuse on that article.

So, care to offer an apology to those four people you evidently unfairly accused and who were already found innocent?

There's a lot more to this than who clicked a button.

There's a lot more to this than your accusations.

So you are not going to apologise to those four people who you accused and who have been investigated and found innocent?

I'm not going to rehash this alkimija. I'll wait for Calvin's investigation.

I'll say this though...

One of the people in my letter just got banned. And the reason? What was in my letter was true.

So you can chew on that, and I'll wait for Calvin.

Tyler, there has been some problem with my emails getting though.

I sent my letter to you and Calvin on Saturday. Did you get it?

I also think folks will be impressed with just how effective the new anti-bloc measures will be.

Cool. can't wait to hear about them.

One of the people in my letter just got banned.

Who?

If the answer is: "I'd rather wait until Calvin/Tyler present the results..."

My request is: "Then can we please stop hinting about what is happening...?"

No sense in leaking out bits of information related to an investigation that everyone else is in the dark about, if you can't or won't elaborate. It's probably easy enough to ignore alkimija in the meantime.

Brian:

Not to call Dennis a liar or anything, but tyler flatly contradicted Dennis's claim. Maybe it's just a case of miscommunication.

Yeah, I saw that.

I'm still worried that the results are somehow going to be ambiguous and we'll just see it flare up again in 6 months or a year.

I'm still worried that the results are somehow going to be ambiguous and we'll just see it flare up again in 6 months or a year.

If its not this then its something else, maybe sooner, the more that join the shorter the drama cycle seems to get.

Not to call Dennis a liar or anything, but tyler flatly contradicted Dennis's claim. Maybe it's just a case of miscommunication.

Eh, no he didn't. I never claimed that the ban was a direct result of my letter. I merely claimed that he was guilty of what I said he was doing. I would think that mine wasn't the only report.

Stop assuming, Jack.

I'm still worried that the results are somehow going to be ambiguous

Tyler has stated that they will be public.

Dennis:

See? Obviously a simple miscommunication, just as I hypothesized.

No harm, no foul.

This is all just a guessing game right now. Me, I'll wait for Calvin and Tyler to finish their investigation and post the results.

#1.115 - One of the people in my letter just got banned. And the reason? What was in my letter was true.

#1.122 - I never claimed that the ban was a direct result of my letter.

Nah. You just implied it.

Maybe you should cut the drama and the posturing and actually apologise for falsely accusing those people who have already been found innocent of those accusations by Calvin.

Is it really that difficult for you to admit that you're were wrong about anything?

Last, but not least - thanks, tyler, for weighing in on this matter. I know we all look forward to your public findings.

Nah. You just implied it.

You do this a lot. You comment in what I "imply." Perhaps you should instead read what I say.

Maybe you should cut the drama and the posturing and actually apologise for falsely accusing those people who have already been found innocent of those accusations by Calvin.

We've covered this, but in memory of that dead horse, I'll say again, that the investigation has just started. You're talking about who clicked a freaking button. Idon't particularly care about the fingers involved. That's not what this is about.

I know we all look forward to your public findings.

God, I wish you would.

I'll second the making everything public!

no matter the side or on who the pile lands, or both...

lay out the facts, name the names and the truth will be there.

Hi Calvin,

Public would be fine with me...once the investigation is concluded. In fact, Tyler already said he intends to make the results public.

I'm happy to wait until he finishes.

Yeah. Interesting stuff, that.

The reason my article is being silenced is because those who are in the line of fire of my critique do not an argument that will hold water. They can not debate the points, so they must silence the opposition. This is cowardly, and goes against the essence of Newsvine.

I'd like to bring everyone's attention to an open attempt to organise just such a shutdown of an article - not because it is in any way violating the CoH/UA, but because the person advocating its shutdown has personal differences of belief:

Eric Albert - comment #8

Alimija,

Re your second paragraph, it's happened to me too, this past week. One Newsviner publicly "instructed" others on the 'vine to ignore me, along with a few other nasty comments. Hopefully, that's been straightened out, one way or the other, but it isn't right, and it isn't pleasant. I feel your pain.

So, please post the list of names that you want investigated, Dennis, and Tyler and I will do the research and will let you all know what the result is. I think that the community should have a say in what the punishment is, both for organized bloc reporting and for falsely accusing people of doing this (be it a public apology or something else).

Calvin, tyler, anything to report yet regarding your investigation of this matter?

Calvin's OOO

O RLY? Fire up the mischief-making machine, boys, it's going to be a bumpy weekend!

tyler:

Is this the result of the specific allegation raised by Dennis in this thread?

Looking foward to the public results, tyler - thanks for keeping us up to date. :)